Running Your Car on Water
I recently visited a couple websites which tried to explain how to run a car on water. The sites are selling e-books or manuals on how to do the conversion yourself for a few hundred dollars. They even claim that you will qualify for Federal tax credits for converting to a “hybrid” car, as this one infers:
http://water-for-gas-reviews.com/RunYourCarOnWater.html
(I do not even want to link to them on the fear that it will legitimize their scheme, but you can make your own decisions.)
I won’t even address the possible trouble with the IRS on this topic, since in effect you are designating your car as a a hybrid without any certification. Check the tax code yourself on the IRS.GOV website. You will have to stretch your, and your auditor’s imagination a bit to get that one.
After deciphering the poorly written explanations of how the technology is supposed to work, it appears that the proponents (shall we call them snake-oil salesmen?) are telling you to use your car’s electricity to create electrolysis, or the process of breaking water down into its component parts of hydrogen and oxygen. Hopefully, they have two paths of collection for the gases so they remain separated prior to injection into the fuel line, but I doubt it. That would be quite a modification to do by yourself.
Then, some of these site discuss the resultant gas, HHO as increasing the combustion rate of engines. I wonder why the automobile manufacturers couldn’t figure that one out? Oh, I forgot - these sites are implying that the automakers are knowingly creating inefficient cars! If that were the case, Toyota wouldn’t have had to sell its Prius to conquer the fuel-efficient car market - Toyota could have done this couple-hundred-dollar modification itself and saved the money on the hybrid drive system and the expensive batteries. Of course, that’s part of the conspiracy - Toyota wants to sell these expensive cars to us unsuspecting customers!
Another thing that concerns me, is that if this system does inject hydrogen into the combustion process, wouldn’t that create more moisture in the engine? Yes, moisture is created in gasoline and diesel combustion too, and can be a major problem if you don’t run your engine long enough to create the heat necessary to evaporate the moisture from the engine and exhaust systems. This is called wet stacking and will reduce the engine’s life. I suspect that if the gas-to-water system really works, then it would only aggravate that problem.
Another consideration is whether the hydrogen adds power to the fuel-air mix? Maybe it adds a little bit, but since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it had to come from somewhere. Did it come from the water? No - water is a stable molecule which does not burn, and thus, does not give any energy via combustion. Then, the extra energy had to come from the hydrogen, right? Yes, it did. But the hydrogen was separated from water by adding energy via the electrolysis process. That energy came from the car battery, which was charged by taking energy from the drive train, which derives it from the engine, which is powered by the gasoline or diesel fuel. Since a perpetual motion machine has never been developed due to frictional and heat losses, we have to assume there are losses in this system too. Reference the Wikepedia article on HHO, which clearly states: “The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it. (See Electrolysis of water:Efficiency).”
This would be similar to a homeowner trying to generate his own electricity by buying an electric motor connected to his home utility grid, and connecting it to a generator into which he plugs his appliances. Sure he generates electricity, but the power ultimately comes from the utility grid, and he loses some of the power due to friction in the drive train between the motor and generator, and the resistive heat losses of the circuits. By the way, I have seen this proposed on the internet as a way of “generating free electricity.” The inventor of that system, like the inventor of the gas-to-water system, also mysteriously disappeared due to another conspiracy.
Here’s my challenge: While the engineers reading this are probably agreeing with me, the snake-oil salesmen are probably outraged.
I would love to hear comments from both sides of this argument, and I will publish all opinions as long as they are not SPAM or overtly commercial.
Let’s see if someone convinces me and I wind up eating crow on this issue!
hho
Tags: gas alternative, hydrogen car, hydrogen engine, water engine, water for gas, water to gas
June 18th, 2008 at 10:08 am
A big thank you to Treehugger.com for posting an intelligent article on this subject at:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/genepax-water-powered-car-japan-debunking.php
Note to treehugger:
THANK YOU, for trying to debunk this myth. I have been trying to fight this scam, and the recent Air Car scam (to be manufactured by a company in India who is probably just trying to boost their stocks temporarily) for some time on my blog linked in my contact info above, also referencing thermodynamics and the perpetual motion machine myths.
To those that worry about wasting water, you are missing the point: This water technology is not possible - period!
As for authentic hydrogen car technology, the idea is different. Instead of “manufacturing” the fuel inside your own vehicle like the water car people want you to think is possible, the hydrogen car uses H2 and O2 separated elsewhere - ideally at the source of an abundant, green energy supply such as a wind farm.
The water created by the recombination of (2) H2 = (1) O2 will either evaporate or remain locally in the ground, but that’s fine in a drought area because it recharges the micro-weather cycle (to a very minute amount.)
Part of the drought problem is caused by the destruction of micro-weather patterns, i.e., the re-evaporation of water locally only to precipitate in a nearby area in repeating cycles. When you flush the toilet, you short-circuit the micro-climate and send water down the freeway full-speed into the ocean, instead of it soaking into the ground or evaporating, and thus doing some more community service on the way to the ocean.
In the end, the point is - stop desperately searching for the quick solution to a long-term problem. We simply need to conserve more energy and live within our means. We are far too materialistic as a society.
June 29th, 2008 at 12:26 am
The reason these guys can get away with it is it works. Thats not to say its a good idea or that its not still kinda a fraud. Truthfully this is an new twist on an old idea. That idea is water injection. Just in this case is obfuscated by adding in the generator and associated crap. Instead of direct water injection there adding Hydrogen that reacts(burns) with Oxygen in the combustion chamber creating H20. This can increase the power generated and lead to slight fuel economy increases. It also however results in incomplete combustion of the fuel and dramatically increased emissions. Thus this technic in-fact violates clean air standards.
(note this is not to be confused with the general solid theory of using water injection in its own cycle in the engine to pull extra energy from the heat of the reaction)
Note air cars are great … No there not powered buy air there powered by compressed air. So the air is just a medium for physical energy storage. The efficiency of this of course is dependent on the efficiency of whatever drives the compressor at the filling station. Its a great way to store and release energy without the emissions of fossil fuels or the large quantities of toxic substances found in batteries. hook that compressor to a wind turbine or solar array and you have a carbon neutral car.
June 29th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
[...] or manuals on how to do the conversion yourself for a few hundred dollars. They even claim thhttp://www.marylandgreenpower.com/greenpower/2008/05/23/running-your-car-on-water/can you really run your car with water? > http://www …djonald asked: do you think the website [...]
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:26 am
Tim,
That’s an interesting viewpoint - especially the part about a separate water injection cycle in the combustion chamber. Is the extra heat extracted by creating steam?
Anyway, thanks for the comment. We like to hear all sides of any argument here!
Regards,
Dennis Meizys
Administrator
July 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Can we run our car with water and gas?
Can anybody tell me is the HHO Gas is real working or is another scam?
July 15th, 2008 at 5:50 am
John,
I doubt that the system described by water to gas works.
Dennis
July 15th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
hi there, I use water to fuel a car as a supplement to gasoline. In fact, very little water is needed,only one quart of water provides over 1800 gallons of HHO gas which can literally last for months and significantly
increase your car fuel efficiently, improve emissions quality, and save money. I found the way through this site http://www.runcarsonwater.us i really recommend it to everybody, it’s a nice ebook where you can find the instructions on how to do it! take a look.